Thought on Atheism’s Appeal to the Multiverse and Romans 1

In the first chapter of the Book of Romans, the Apostle Paul contends both that atheism and pagan unbelief in general is due to a suppression of the truth for moral reasons rather than evidential ones, and he also contends that in suppressing the truth, unbelievers will then imbue created things with the powers and nature of the Creator, and in light of that scriptural verse, what is fascinating to observe is how the modern atheistic push towards the multiverse supports this Christian claim, for with the multiverse, the atheist has a god-surrogate which–given an infinity or near infinity of universes–can do almost everything that God can do (create a fine-tuned universe, create life, create rational beings, cause “miracle-like” events, etc.), while simultaneously being a god-like surrogate which does not place any moral burden on the atheist, which is its one critical difference to theism; and so, the very fact that the modern atheist is willing to accept the existence of an a-moral entity from which even the most absurd outcomes arise (for almost anything that is possible can happen in an infinity of universes) in order to avoid having to accept the existence of a personal god-being who might make moral demands on them is indeed a clue that perhaps the atheist’s opposition to a god really is about morality, not about evidence, and so maybe Paul really was on to something when he wrote what he wrote in Romans 1.

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12 thoughts on “Thought on Atheism’s Appeal to the Multiverse and Romans 1

  1. Paul’s words are what many Christians now use, the attempt to claim that anyone who doesn’t worship as he does is evil, immoral and simply a rebel who denies the obvious. Unfortunately for Paul and those Christians, other religions make the same claim as he does, that one just has to look around to see the evidence that their religions are true. This means that none of these religions, nor Christianity, have any truth and their claims are baseless.

    How can you show that the universe was created by your version of your god and that it wasn’t simply from the laws of physics or other gods?

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    • You said:

      “…other religion make the same claim as he does…”

      Assertion. Evidence please. Or else retract the claim and issue an apology for making a false statement.

      You said:

      “…that one just has to look around to see the evidence that their religions are true.”

      Paul is not claiming that all of Christian doctrine can be seen through what has been made, but rather that God and His nature can be. These are two different things. Ergo, your point is out-the-mark.

      You said:

      “This means that none of these religions…have any truth and their claims are baseless.”

      What illogical foolishness. This does not follow at all. Check your logic and think….at worst, it means that this particular interpretation of Paul (or this particular doctrine) is wrong. Nothing else.

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      • Always fun to watch a Christian insist that others show evidence and demand apologies for it not being shown. That’s quite hypocritical and entirely expected.

        Let’s first show exactly what I said and not your intentionally truncated versions: “Unfortunately for Paul and those Christians, other religions make the same claim as he does, that one just has to look around to see the evidence that their religions are true.”

        Now this is what Paul says “18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

        This is exactly what I said, what Paul said and what you tried to misrepresent. I said nothing about Christian doctrine, a thing that Christians themselves cannot agree on. It makes me wonder when so many Christians depend on deceit and ignorance to make their arguments. You have created a strawman to attack since you could not attack what I really said.

        Now, let’s look where other religions have made the same arguments that their god is the creator and that one can “clearly see” about this god’s qualities:

        Here’s a list of gods that are called the creator of the universe aka reality by their religions:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creator_deity

        And where other religions make the same claims that Christians do:
        The cosmological argument was borrowed from older religions by Christianity, and is a wonderful example of how Christianity is nothing special: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument#History

        As was the teleological argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument#History

        http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/conceptofGod.htm

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman and the root idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca#Theology

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

        I suspect you know little about other religions and philosophies to make the statements you have. I also suspect you will not read the links presented to remain willfully ignorant. I hope I am completely wrong.

        I also suspect you will come up with a common excuse that these religions/philosophies didn’t say “exactly aka word for word” what Paul did so you can ignore my points. I do hope I ‘m utterly wrong in that.

        In a broader sense, the mere existence of religions indicate that people believe in them just you believe in yours, with faith and without evidence. Any religion that wastes effort and resources certainly seems like they really believe, e.g. the building of temples and churches.

        I am curious to see if you’ll try to claim that Allah and your god is the same entity since they did indeed come from the same root belief. Some Christians believe this, some do not.

        Now, I do hope you will be responsible and show evidence that it is only your god that is the creator and that no other gods are. If you can’t, then please retract the claim and apologize for making a false statement.

        You claim I have shown “illogical foolishness”. That claim is based on you attacking a strawman and not my actual argument. Please do retract the claim and apologize. What I said is “Paul’s words are what many Christians now use, the attempt to claim that anyone who doesn’t worship as he does is evil, immoral and simply a rebel who denies the obvious. Unfortunately for Paul and those Christians, other religions make the same claim as he does, that one just has to look around to see the evidence that their religions are true. This means that none of these religions, nor Christianity, have any truth and their claims are baseless.” It’s always a red flag when a theist uses ellipses in order to change arguments for their supposed benefit.

        Now, since all religions make the same claims, they contradict each other since all of their gods can’t be the same per their own holy books. Further, since none of them have any evidence to support their claims this means that their claims are not true. You have claimed that I have misinterpreted Paul and/or this particular doctrine. Christians make this claim all often and then cannot show that their version is the one true one. I do expect you to show me what is the true version and how you know.

        Now, again, I do expect you to provide evidence for your claims or retract them and apologize.

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      • No one said your world revolved around anything. It was a post to indicate that there was a comment in moderation and that it is a common thing for some Christians to not allow critical comments on their blogs. Would you claim that they don’t?

        I am very glad that you aren’t one of them. I do hope you will address my post.

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      • Club,

        I have no idea, although I do not doubt it.

        As far as addressing your post, only if time permits, and time is tight. However, feel free to comment as much or a little as you like.

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      • Clubs,

        This is my blog, and my rules. Feel free to comment, but don’t tell me what to do. And if you don’t like it, feel free to piss off.

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      • It is certainly your blog and your rules. If your claims are true, it shouldn’t be an onerous task to support your own claims.

        For someone who demands this of others “Assertion. Evidence please. Or else retract the claim and issue an apology for making a false statement.” it is curious that you refuse to do the same. I see that you appear to be angry at me, telling me to “piss off” for daring to hold you to your own standards.

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  2. ”Now this is what Paul says

    “18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.””

    ”For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen,”

    ”his eternal power and divine nature”

    It seems to me that Paul here is not refering towards the truth of the Christian God being specifically known through nature.

    He is refering towards certain qualities that actually point towards there being a transcendent creator.

    And the people doing immoral deeds,it seems that they are doing them while at the same time believing in a creator who is offended by such shameful actions.

    These people may be pagans who believe in a creator entity but who also go against this belief or ignore it by doing actions that were/are believed to offend that deity.

    Or it may be the case that they intentionally are disbelieving in the existence of a judge in order to do as they please.

    As for the claim that multiple religions assert the same thing:

    ”Now, let’s look where other religions have made the same arguments that their god is the creator and that one can “clearly see” about this god’s qualities:”

    It is true that some religions assert that a creator’s existence can be clearly seen.

    But it also seems that these religions all agree on the point that a transcendent creator exists and be clearly seen via creation.

    But other religions call that being differently and/or add more specific qualities to it that differentiate it from other religions.

    I don’t see Paul claiming that the Christian God’s existence can be seen clearly,but the existence of a creator who may or may not hold people accountable for actions that are considered shameful and offensive.

    Things such as eternal power and divine nature can also be used to describe the Islamic God or a creator in the more theistic versions of Hinduism.

    In the end,religions claim that a creator can be clearly deduced.But they call such a creator differently and add different qualities to it.

    Even if other religions are not just claiming that a creator can be clearly infered,but even the qualities and attributes that point specifically to their version of God,this still does not mean Paul is saying such a thing.

    Paul does not say that the Christian God can be infered,but that a creator can be infered.

    ”The cosmological argument was borrowed from older religions by Christianity,”

    So what?

    ”In a broader sense, the mere existence of religions indicate that people believe in them just you believe in yours, with faith and without evidence. ”

    You do realise 22056 does not believe with faith and without evidence?He in fact claims the opposite.

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  3. ”What I said is “Paul’s words are what many Christians now use, the attempt to claim that anyone who doesn’t worship as he does is evil, immoral and simply a rebel who denies the obvious. Unfortunately for Paul and those Christians, other religions make the same claim as he does, that one just has to look around to see the evidence that their religions are true. This means that none of these religions, nor Christianity, have any truth and their claims are baseless.” ”

    It still does not logically follow that just because other religions make the same claim that Paul makes about their version of truth being obvious,that none of these religions have any truth in them.

    And it may not even be true that Paul is claming that the Christian God can be seen.

    It is also likely that Paul is claiming that a transcendent creator can easily be deduced.

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